August 98... days that will live in infamy. (very long post)

[Pendekar Tangan Api <tanganapi@yahoo.com>]

--- Bala Pillai <bala@malaysia.net> wrote:
> Dear Robert/Sangkancilers,
> 
> Wrong that Yap was removed. He left of his own
> accord - there's proof in the
> Sangkancil archives. About end-August/early
> September 1998, Yap left of his
> own
> accord

So far the archives seem to bear bala out :)


> after a prolonged dispute over the onus of
> proof required in corruption
> allegations aired in Sangkancil about his close
> friend - I forget his name -

MURAD KHALID.
Formerly assistant governor of bank negara.

 
> Anybody who disagrees that he left of his own accord
> is most welcome to check
> the Sangkancil archives for that period.

Good advice, bala. Am checking the archives 
right now, but you must pardon the cursory glances.
i had more unbillable time THEN as opposed to now.
(right now i'm paying RM3 per hour just to type this)

Oh, do mind the long post, but here are some snippets
from the archives... I cut and pasted from the
archives. I couldn't find the URL to just paste
because the archives uses frames.

This is a repost of you, bala. 

---start repost---
Re: [sangkancil] Murad Khalid-MBf Credit card
                                (fwd)


       To
          sangkancil@malaysia.net
     From
          Bala Pillai <bala@malaysia.net>
      Date
          Thu, 27 Aug 1998 17:22:32 +1000
 In-Reply-To
         
<3.0.3.32.19980827164827.00e910a0@mail.apic.net>
 References
         
<35e5f7d3.3459246@smtp.jaring.my><3.0.3.32.19980827124805.00944040@mail.apic.net><Pine.BSF.3.96.980826192900.411B-100000@mgg><Pine.BSF.3.96.980826192900.411B-100000@mgg><3.0.3.32.19980827124805.00944040@mail.apic.net>




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Just to refresh Sangkancilers, this is the message
that is in contention.
Please make your own call as to which are the critical
issues that are the
subject of town talk.

**forwarded message**

Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 09:59:52 +0800 (MYT)
From: "M.G.G. Pillai" <pillai@mgg.pc.my>
X-Sender: pillai@mgg
To: Sang Kancil <sangkancil@malaysia.net>
cc: SK <sk@malaysia.net>
Subject: [sangkancil] Murad Khalid-MBf Finance and
Southern Bank (fwd)

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 18:00:43 PDT
From: ganesh sahathevan <g_sahathevan@hotmail.com>
To: pillai@mgg.pc.my
Subject: Murad Khalid-MBf Finance and Southern Bank

Murad Khalid was BN manager for banking regulation in
1988-89 when
he was issued a Gold Card by MBf Finance. the card was
marked VIP,
which meant in MBf terms-treat gently when repayments
are not made. 
What was curious about this card was the fact that it
had in its ten
years, never appeared to have been used. It only
appeared to have
been used once aftere issue, for a cash withdrawal of
RM10,000, the
credit limit on that card.The card was cancelled only
sometime in
1995. 

In 1995, Murad was already assistant governor in
charge of banking
regulation. One bank under supervision, for problems
in its credit
card department was Southern Bank. Two things happened
here that
bring the independence of Murad , and BN; and the MOF
into question. 

First was the approval from the MOF for a comapny
controlled by
Southern's MD Tan Teong Han, to take-up a special
issue of
Bumiputera shares in a Southern rights issue. Tan had
a 40% stake in
the comapny while a group of bumiputera shareholders
COLLECTIVELY
held the remainder-Tan was definetly in charge of this
Bumi company. 

Then, immediately after this incident, Tan moved
Southern's share
register to a company named Panama Resources.  Two of
three
directors in that company were, at that time , Murad
Khalid's
sisters.

The MOF would have been aware of all these goings on;
why was it
allowed? 

-________________________________________________

 List Owner: M.G.G. Pillai <mailto:pillai@mgg.pc.my>
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---end repost ---- 

This is a piece from Pelanuk.


----start repost-----

Re: [sangkancil] Murad Khalid-MBf Credit card
                                (fwd)


       To
          sangkancil@malaysia.net
     From
          pelanuk@tm.net.my
      Date
          Fri, 28 Aug 1998 11:35:00 +0800
 In-Reply-To
         
<3.0.3.32.19980828062252.00b4e7f0@mail.apic.net>
 References
         
<360e030c.22072447@pop5.jaring.my><35e9a95b.6533315@smtp.jaring.my><Pine.BSF.3.96.980826192900.411B-100000@mgg><35e9a95b.6533315@smtp.jaring.my>




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Business Internet Services. Some talk. Some do. We
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well, i might get thrown off for this post, but this
thread is
something of a minor disgrace, isn't it? all for free
speech,
etc. until someone persists in a challenge, insisting
on some
proof, etc. -- then reversion to mode a la malaysia,
top of
which must be 'look what we have done for you, you
ingrates'
(most recent government form was of course reference
to nep and
how everyone is a crony, and look at papa lim and anak
lim,
isn't that cronyism?).

so, we're malaysians after all -- imbued with a
certain culture
which pops up in a pinch; and yap gets plastered with
cronyism
for attempting to defend a friend. perhaps his loyalty
to
friendship is blind, perhaps not. but loyalty to
friends is not
such a negative trait, is it, especially if the
evidence for a
friend's wrong-doing is not altogether compelling? mgg
is always
singing the praises of a tan sri ghazali shafie -- but
james
wong, samad ismail, abdullah majid, abdullah ahmad,
syed husin
ali, kassim ahmad, and a bunch of others will likely
differ
greatly, not to mention the gossip around the heli
crash, as
well as some dealings in png, etc. good to know that
mgg, too,
has his loyalties based on his own judgment, seemingly
ignoring
some unpleasant evidence.

why the extreme defensiveness, bala -- and the
continual harping
on the business of this mailing list being free as a
way of
avoiding challenges that one does not find palatable?
afaik,
most, if not all, mailing lists are free, and when
list
managers, moderators, whatever, get flak, they don't
mount a
defense on the basis of, 'hey, you're getting a
freebie, etc.
etc.' it's getting a little tiresome. especially since
we're
also being told about internet culture -- the internet
culture,
now being challenged by the big commercial interests,
was of
things being free, of committed persons volunteering
time and
effort, etc. and it's not exactly good form to be
continually
throwing back that business of being free. we
appreciate the
list, take it at its word, but it appears there are
limits and
differential rights (and perhaps an equivalent of isa
-- getting
thrown off without appeal or hearing before a court of
one's
peers or even a clear consensus), and there are the
privileged
and the not-so-privileged.

let's recount, briefly -- and probably with some
oversights, not
to mention reading that's not altogether 2020, on my
part --
what's happened:

1. A posts a piece by C suggesting something
unpleasant about X

2. B responds and says he knows X and finds that hard
to believe
and seeks some evidence

3. B gets a reply, or replies, saying it's not our job
to
produce evidence; it's for X to defend himself (shades
of
charged and condemned?)

4. B goes and gets some evidence that, as of the
latest, that at
least one of the claims about X in the piece by C is
not true --
which is not to say that it was previously untrue,
although
there is the business of whether X does or does not
have
sisters, an easy enough fact to verify -- and seeks
clarification on that

5. B gets further replies not addressing the evidence
produced
by B, instead some other stuff about how tiresome he
is, how
repetitive, charges him with cronyism (with or without
a
smiley), about how many goals have been scored
previously
(although i can't see that many and can't quite
understand the
relevance, as though being right on previous occasions
necessarily makes one right on this occasion), snide
remarks
about some oxford debating stuff (although yap does
have a thing
about oxford), a dissimulation mode of switching to
so-called
kopitiam talk, etc.

through my lenses, it does appear that B has a point
to be
addressed and he has caused some discomfiture.

as for so-called vip credit cards -- i'm sure quite a
few people
on this list have had pre-approved credit card
applications,
have had their joining fee waived, their credit limits
upped,
and what not. not so vip anymore. even ordinary credit
cards
used to be vip at one point, until it became such
common
currency with such lax vetting that bank negara
stepped in.

whether or not government officers should or should
not have
credit cards is another question -- but i doubt
there's any
government in the world today that denies that to
their
officers, given the function of credit cards today.
for one
thing, without credit cards, they can't be doing any
purchases
on the internet. but perhaps no executive level staff
at bank
negara should have credit cards, take out housing
loans from
other than government, purchase any car on
hire-purchase, since
bank negara the organization is regulator for the
whole
financial system?

so perhaps we should return to the issue at hand --
and its
ramifications -- or else the list-owner can simply
terminate
further discussion on the matter.


pelanuk
(another of the nameless, but with a good account and
if one
submits the 'right' request, can get hold of name and
address
from tmnet; incidentally, if the lack of a proper name
is an
issue, then write it in to the rules of subscription,
even make
subscription acceptable only on support from two other
established list members, whatever; else it's all
acceptable
culture on the 'net, is it not? also, don't mention
any surat
layang which comes without name often enough, etc.)

------end repost-----
 
And finally, I'd like to quote a snippet of a Sabri
Zain post, by way of Bala . This is not a full post.


---start repost----



Like Yang Berhormat Tan Sri alluded to, IRC channel
ops, email list
owners, newsgroup moderators - they are God. When was
the last time you
tried going into a chat channel and telling the ops
that he was an
idiot? Ever heard of the technical computer term
"kick"?

I still don't know if Uncle Yap has unsubscribed
himself, or has been
deleted from the list by Bala. If it is the latter,
then I personally
think it is a harsh decision and probably wrong - but
that's only *my*
opinion. I am *not* the Administrator, so that opinion
counts for squat.
Of course, we all have every right to state our
opinions on this list if
it is a ban, try and talk some sense into him, bring
some calm and
reason into the dispute, A good adminsitrator  would
take those comments
into account and use his own judgement as to what
action to take. But at
the end of the day, it is his call and his call alone.

Yes, the system is very feudal. But it sure beats the
anarchy, hate and
stupidity of the news servers. And I don't know of any
other better
alternative to what we have here in SK - a list
moderated by the
Administrator. Sure, we can try and set up a dispute
settlement system
among us, have a little committee, try and delegate
the moderation work
- but has anyone here heard of a system that works
yet? 

The current system (and Bala) has done a fine job in
keeping SK on track
up to now. In the time I have been in SK, I can
remember a few
dispruptive individuals who are now gone because of
good moderating. If
it weren't for that, I would have not wasted my time
here - and people
do leave lists if the moderator cannot control things.
A fully
democratic but empty list is not going to do anyone
any good, is it?

I do *not* think Uncle Yap was being disruptive. I
think he should come
back (or be allowed back). I do not think Bala was
completely objective
in this affair. I think he did not separate his own
individual feelings
and his objectivity as the moderator in his posts on
this matter. I
think he made a mistake.

---end repost-----

and if current subbers of the list would like to know
MORE about the ganesh/mgg/bala/yap imbroglio, CHECK
THE ARCHIVES.

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